Many white men have written into Dear Niki to ask how they can “Get a Black Girl” and since I prefer to take the “What NOT to do” approach with men I built a short film of the most common verbal mistakes.
Here I answer the question many woman have written to me and asked. You can also find more information on page 96 of my book, A Black Girls Guide to Dating White Men.
Here is a letter that I received from a woman looking for answers to cure her condition of the ‘What If Syndrome’. This is the mental disorder, named by yours truly, to describe that feeling of anxiety when passing a group of people of your same race, after being verbally assaulted by a similar group. Her letter says it all!
Dear Niki,
I am fairly new to the world of dating white men. Never in life was it my intention to EVER embark on such a journey, but in a little less than a year I have enjoyed the close company of two. The first, I had to release back into the wild. We carried on for a while but after a few months it was apparent that he just enjoyed the sex, which, surprisingly was the best I ever had in my LIFE! Needless to say, it was hard to let him go (and he didn’t go as quietly as I thought he would/should).
Anyway, it was when I met the second guy that I actually experienced an honest relationship where both parties were mutually interested in pursuing a possible future. He wasn’t as handsome as the first guy and didn’t dress well at all. But he was very smart. Bachelors in Accounting and MBA smart. No matter what race, I’m a sucker for a brainiac. The sex was like something out of a Lifetime/Hallmark movie. Very sensual, caring and emotional. He was much shorter than any other guy I had ever dated before but I didn’t mind that much. I’ve never been concerned with what others thought of me. At any time. I have been labeled not only a “straight shooter” but also “unfiltered”. In some ways this has been a jewel in my crown and other times… not so much. That being said, I was surprised at my own behavior when out in public with Mr. Brainiac. I would constantly look over my shoulder to see if anyone was looking at us. Being in denial, I convinced myself that this was because he was unattractive and short. After all, visibly (and superficially)we were a mismatch in every way imaginable. This went on for a couple of weeks until one day while walking into a restaurant, he asks “Is someone following you?” He wanted an explanation for my being so “aware” of my surroundings. That night at dinner I had to come clean about my fear of running into the “brothas”. He thought it was absurd. Not me.
You see, in a previous experience, while walking through a hotel with a gorgeous, white client (I’m an accountant and tax preparer) we happened to walk past about 4 black guys who were very open with voicing their displeasure with me “being” with a white boy. They shouted “AW HELL NAW CUZ! YOU SEE THIS SH*T?!! F*&K THESE WANNABE HIGH CLASS HOES!!” At the time I laughed because it was so ridiculous. Not only was I not interested in white men at the time, but my client was very…GAY.
Brainiac and I expanded our scope of activities. A lot of times this landed us square in the path of the most vocally intimidating creatures on the planet! He seemed oblivious to this. Most of the time he had NO clue that laying a very passionate kiss on me in front of a Chuck Taylor-Air Force One/white tee clad bunch was being taken as a challenge. I understand that I live in a city (Las Vegas) overrun by tourists from other places. Some of which have a very different take on interracial dating. But something happened that shocked me… While waiting for Mr. Brainiac to come out of the restroom one night at a casino, I spotted a well dressed, VERY nice looking black man. We exchanged looks but there was something very condescending about the way he looked at me. Sure enough, coming out of the restroom was his pleasantly plump (yet nice looking) white lady. He grabbed her and proceeded to hug her and kiss her deeply. By this time Mr. Brainiac had exited the restroom and walked over to me. He retrieves the bag of leftovers from earlier that I had in my hand and gives me a peck on the lips, grabs my hand and we start walking. As brother man sees this, he and his girl are walking past us. He totally gives my man the serious “mean mug” with the stuck out lips and crossed our path so closely we had to stop to let them by! Did I miss something? He was with HIS lady, AND very upset with my man…why?!
Sincerely Yours,
Me Go
I first referred her to my old blog Ode to The Hypocrite, showing her that she is not alone, and after a few messages of advice, I leave you all with this.
Hopefully we can get over our “WIS” before subconsciously ruining a perfectly healthy relationship. No more thinking or caring about “What will people think?” Because it’s just placing your energy in unimportant places. She should have been giving more attention to this wonderful man instead of the “What If’s”. There are many people out there that won’t give a rats behind about what you do and who you do it with, so focus on them as opposed to the nay sayers. Although, you may run through some rough patches, or better yet “rough people”, they won’t always be around and we can’t base an entire experience off of a few idiots.
Many American black women are beginning to search abroad for companions and with new age technology, it’s been a lot easier to meet friends in foreign places. If you haven’t, the idea isn’t something that is completely out of reach and it could and should be considered. Now that you’re opening your options to white men, there are many men oceans away that are looking for you, too.
I have enlisted the help of Kiwi Jim of New Zealand to voice his expertise on interracial dating and to help us get to know our “foreign honky”. (I didn’t title it! HE DID!!) *Side note: He also introduced me to New Zealands national rugby team, who are ironically named the “All Blacks”. Maybe New Zealand is calling our names and could be a great place to start?!
Know your Foreign Honky
By: Kiwi Jim
For many African American women, the wider world appears to be a daunting place. Sadly for many it also feels unobtainable. Yes we are in 21st Century but there are historical, financial and racial barriers in the US that have prevented many African American women from expanding their relationship horizons. But once you ladies realise that large amounts of foreign white men find African American women amazing, further that, many other cultures may well be more relaxed about interracial dating and relationships, then things get a whole lot rosier. Thus I had to agree with the sentiments voiced here by ‘Armywife’ on Yahoo answers.
I was in Germany for 6 years and I met plenty of German men, or French men that were married to former service members that were black women, and vice versa. The whole world is not obsessed about colour the way we are here in America.
While the above comment is obviously aimed at men from continental Europe, I suggest the reader start out with native English speakers from Commonwealth countries and branch out from there. The more confidence you have with us guys outside your zone, the more confident you will be meeting white guys from more exotic European destinations. If you haven’t bumped into him on the street, the internet is a cheap and easy way of going about meeting us foreign white stallions. Further, if you strike up a good rapport on the net who knows? You could end up splitting the cost of travel 50/50 or hell he could be nice enough for you to pay and visit or he could come and see you.
But don’t pop the cork tosoon sisters. Stella hasn’t got her groove back just yet!
Take Advice From One
The big problem is American’s geographical skills. Not to mention their knowledge of the outside world is, what we call in New Zealand, ‘shit house’. Sadly, African Americans have also been victims of believing the world is the USA and that “We are the World” (www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9BNoNFKCBI).This benevolent yet naïve world view has not made the U.S the most popular of countries in recent times. So here’s my first piece of advice:
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Shut up! If you have not done so, I advise educating yourself about the planet and perceptions of the U.S before you venture forth. It’s often very daunting for U.S citizens to comprehend, but it’ll increase your knowledge and you’ll avoid being ‘that’ American of cliché. Learn elementary geography and linguistics. For example, “I like people who live in English” was one of the more used comments I encountered when I visited the land of the free. So for starters, English is a language. Great Britain which consists of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and of course England, where ‘English’ originated. As you know, it is the dominant language spoken in the United States. But it’s also the dominant language in Canada, The Republic of Ireland, Australia and New Zealand, which are also its other major hubs. If you really want to jump in at the deep end, read Maureen Jenkins excellent blog about the importance of ‘sisters’ understanding the History and social mores of places like France or Italy(http://urbantravelgirl.com/2009/08/09/black-women-traveling-abroad-learn-a-foreign-country%E2%80%99s-social-mores-customs-before-you-go/). This respect, I might add, goes for anywhere anyone should travel.
- This might sound odd, but save yourself the heart ache of assuming every white guy will dig you just because he likes Black women. Don’t assume every white guy will find you attractive. You may look like Beyoncé or Niki McElroy but there are guys out there who may like larger physiques, like darker skin tones, hair styles etc. Endeavour to find out about the preferences of your white men where ever they may be. This isn’t stating shape up or ship out. We all have preferences of what we want and you, the reader, are no different.
- Be a friend first and let the relationship develop. Don’t be a dick and fall in love after one chat (that goes for anyone). Chances are that due to distance and circumstance, you may never actually meet any one designated person. But if you know a few more lads from different locales, your chances increase. So go ahead play the field. Enjoy the friendships, enjoy the flirting and what happens, happens! If just if, he turns up right away, well, that’s a wonderful bonus.
- Black American culture (or the world’s skewed perception of it) is universal. The oddest thing however, is that very few people have actually met African Americans. Fewer still have actually met African American women (which is a real shame). No matter where you visit, you will still attract attention simply because you are not the sort of person seen or heard regularly in far flung places like Australia and New Zealand. Stares, however, do not denote racism or disapproval of you. In fact it’s likely the opposite. Don’t be too sensitive about it. Have fun with communications. With one or two polite words, you’ll generally have folks eating out of your hand. Just be prepared to answer the same questions a few times (http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=814354).
One of the downsides to popular culture is the use of sexual imagery. In certain places around the world, some cultures have developed a skewed view of African American women. Rap lyrics and all manner of music videos often haven’t helped the situation. I’ve heard numerous first hand instances of Asian men in China, Japan and some parts of India rather innocently refer to black women as ‘hoes’ and men as ‘niggers’ in an effort to impress upon their African American visitors how much they ‘dug’ them. This is unlikely to happen in Australia, New Zealand or elsewhere, however I’d advise one think about the Plane route they take to these or other enclaves of white masculinity.
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While they say it’s the skill of the magician, not the size of the wand. White guys are most definitely hung enough to satisfy any cravings. Yes, as Niki and other African American females who have dated us have been at odds to point out.
- As for a sense of humour, most non-American European males take the crap outta themselves. They also don’t generally take offence at racial terms describing themselves. In much the same way as others may do. My friends and I have honestly laughed our asses off when we have heard racial remarks. Hell, I describe myself as a Gringo, Honky, Cracker, White Trash and worse. Now while I don’t advise going around the place saying this stuff to every European you meet, depending on the context and environment, they are surprisingly kosher and humorous terms. But our indifference to all manner of slurs may come at a price. A small few may fail to realise how offensive some terms may be to others, in particularly, after some beers. So iron out these sorts of issues in the getting to know you, period.
Meeting us Foreign Honkies Online
In Niki’s book you will find all manner of tips about meeting white guys. What to do and what to say. My advice with meeting foreign white guys online would be to give everything a go. Free Dating sites are pretty useful and all manner of countries have them. Interracial dating sites may be even better. Sadly very few have much of an international component and most cost. My internet advice is essentially similar to Niki’s advice for social interactions and dating. Think about what interests you may share with a white guy and go to that forum, site or networking page. It’s those interests, not your colour funnily enough which will hold your relationship together. Just take precautions as per usual, always get photographic evidence and definitely try web-camming. I know this has all kinds of connotations to it (most of them slightly dodgy). But I’d do it just to figure out if this dude is the real deal. Further don’t send anybody money.
In all of this the key is be safe, cool, learn, have fun and don’t run before you walk. I’d also advise reading the comments after this piece. Oh and hassle Niki if you ladies want more of my foreign Honky advice and opinions.
Till next time,
Kiwi Jim
This is a sneak peak into the book, for those who have not yet purchased it. This is the books foreword written by Michael Brouilett. Who happens to be a very handsome white guy. Here’s what he had to say:
Having dated black women and growing up in a 99% white environment, the issues and implications of interracial dating have always been of interest to me. This interest in social phenomena manifested itself into my acquired M.A. from the University of Texas at San Antonio in Sociology with a concentration in power and race. I can’t tell you how many of my white friends have confided to me their secret desire to date a black woman. When presented with this information, I usually ask them the same question, “why don’t you?” Usually it comes down to either they don’t know how to approach black women or they don’t know any. Drawing on Niki’s background in comedy, “A Black Girls Guide to Dating White Men” is an often humorous and always informative peak into actually bridging the gap between someone being open to interracial dating and actually doing it.
Although the taboo of interracial dating theoretically exists less and less in American society today, the de facto reality is that norms and mores are slow to change. While it is true that interracial black/white marriage has been doubling percentage wise each of the last three decades, it remains the interracial union that has grown the slowest. Black/White marriage is undeniably a very small sliver of the overall marriage composition in the United States. These unions made up a mere .3% of all marriages in 1980 and have only risen to .6% of all marriages by 2000 (Lewis 2010). Total interracial marriages have grown significantly faster, but a large composition of this growth is is made up of hispanic and non-hispanic unions and does not reflect a similar growth trend in black/white unions.
The relative explosion of interracial dating among young people suggests that people are open to dating outside of their race. However, when it comes to marriage, they still marry within. This speaks to the often unspoken reality of racial divide that continues to exist in American society at large.
Niki addresses this divide and has written a witty “how to” book with tips to bridging it. It’s one part qualitative sociological analysis, one part racial translation and one part pure humor. Read this book ready to learn, laugh, disagree and discuss.

After the great response from women in agreement on my last blog about The Woodworkers, ex’s that show up out of the woodworks at the wrong times of your life and why, it got me to thinking about the tools you may meet while out on your dating escapades. A tool is an idiom many people use to describe someone used to carry out the designs of another; a dupe. Many times they are carrying out what they think society determines to be cool in what they wear, where they work and in how they treat women.
After spending the many years researching for my book I have met some fabulous men, as well as many tools. The key is to spot them for what they are before they have a chance to embed themselves into your toolbox. Let me introduce them to you. Keep in mind: Some tools can and will transform into other types of tools over different stages of their lives. Be Aware!
The Hammer:
The Hammer is the guy that spends majority of the time trying to pound every woman that he sees. He thinks the higher number of girls that he has nailed, will make him cool. As you know, the hammer is the most common tool found in the average home… and the average woman. You find him at clubs buying the drinks, in the workplace offering raises and in hollywood cleaning off his casting couch. If he approaches too hard with promises of a perfect life, the moon and the stars remember, as good as it sounds, after he “hits it” those dreams will be shattered.
The Screwdriver:
The Screwdriver is the guy that calls so much, you realize that he’s a bit screwy! His steady persistence starts out as a flattering ego booster and quickly turns more into an annoying form of stalker-esk behavior. When you find that it’s been a mere 30 minutes and he’s already inquiring on why you haven’t called him back, throw him out! Remember, screwdrivers are easily replaced with the multi purpose butter knife which is simple and easy to use.
The Level:
When first meeting The Level you think he’s really into the idea of starting a relationship and his bubble is steady center between the two markings showing that he’s balanced. Then as things start getting serious, he gets nervous and that bubble that was once centered is now seen at the other end of the tool. You try to steady him out with confirmations and support but before you know it, you see that bubble bouncing back and forth. Before you know it, your arm gets tired of trying to straighten him out. This guy isn’t so bad, but I suggest looking for the Lazer Level, he’s quicker to balance and saves you an arm ache.
The Monkey Wrench:
Have you ever dated a guy that has wanted you to carry them around through life? They are latching onto your business deals, asking you to guide their life and eating all of your food while they are at it. These are The Monkey Wrenches. Not only are they needy like little household monkeys, these Ceaser wanna be’s ruin your future by throwing a wrench into your life. Since Monkey Wrenches are used for the car, get them out asap before they drive you bananas!
The Measuring Tape:
We have all been impressed once or twice in our lives by The Measuring Tape. The guy that measures so well in that certain area that you deal with more crap than you would with any other tool. This guy has a way of making you forget why you were upset with him and the standards that you once had for yourself. Every time you try to put him back where you found him, you end up clipping him to your hip instead. You can’t get enough. Although it may seem that nobody will ever measure up in that area, your life’s goals and expectations for yourself should. Put it away, because The Measuring Tape just may cut you. STEP AWAY FROM THE MEASURING TAPE!
Now once you recognize that these types of men have no place in your life, it will leave space available for the good men that you’ve been looking past due to your addiction of collecting tools. The only thing that these guys are good for is building nightmares. As a woman, you have no choice but to go through the toolbox, one by one until you find what you are looking for. Which will inevitably and hopefully lead to an empty toolbox meaning that you are centered, complete and happy with yourself , leaving you free to choose what you want in your life instead of having to continue through the succession of tools.

Throughout my life I have dated all different races of men that come from different backgrounds, different countries and varying educational levels. I have found that there are typical personality traits that can be used to distinguish one from another, however in many instances there are some traits that cross racial, cultural and socio-economic boundaries. There is one flaw, or maybe it’s a gift, that the male species seem to be granted at a certain point in their life. Could be, it’s a brother to the sixth sense. The gift of knowing when to Come out of the woodwork.
The term “coming out of the woodwork” is an idiom used to describe someone or something that appears suddenly or unexpectedly, usually unwanted and uninvited. This seems to happen long after a break up, long after you’ve repaired your broken heart and right before you are turning to another chapter of your life. You know, that moment when you are about to say, “YES”? YES to a career relocation, YES to another relationship, YES to allowing yourself to no longer think of this particular male in question. But soon as you are about to make that transition, you receive a call… FROM HIM!… NOOOOOOOOO!!!
It’s never the right moment and typically makes you want to question everything you thought you’ve figured out.
I’ve had many Out of the Woodwork Men pop up in my life, who have come back with housing offers, proposals and regretful apologies. One, I married (divorced now). Some, I have laughed and left by the curbside. Others, I let linger in the friendship ocean in case I ever see change enough to throw them a life jacket.
How do they know exactly when to show up? Is there a “Keep Tabs on Your Ex” App? In recent years we can blame Twitter and Facebook, but in the past… how did they do it? How did they know? I believe that it’s a sixth sense and we all are connected. Once your energies have connected in a relationship it’s forever. Once you love and care for someone, you always will. Many have tried to change those feeling to hate, but we know that there is a very thin line between the two. But I think that these men get a feeling of disconnect that leaves them wanting to reconnect.
These occurrences left me being honest with myself about what was really going on. Why do I get so many men that are self proclaimed Houdini’s? They do a disappearing act, only to return with this undying love and appreciation for who I am? Wanting to be with just me?
Then I realized, I am known as a “Back Burner Girl”.
I’m that girl that comes with the “full package” and the full ingredients, but some men still aren’t sure that they are ready to commit to that steady taste. While I’m on the back burner simmering, they are sampling other recipes (girls) on the front burners, having fun and seeing if they are able to cook up the right ingredients. As they go through those dishes, steady sampling and cleaning their plates, they realize that they are tired of cooking and come back to have a taste of that good dish that they have left the back, with all of the right seasonings which have married together like the natural recipe had called for. The pot that was always reliable, soul pleasing and don’t forget, HOT!
What these men may fail to realize is that one day, while they’re sitting down to eat one of the front burner “in the meantime” meals, someone may come take his pot of the good stuff. Or turn off their power all together so that back burner will no longer warm up and remain cold forever. He’ll be stuck trying to warm up that pot with apologies, but at a certain point, it’s been cold for so long.. all has gone bad.
This was a piece that I wrote which was featured on Dr. Veronica’s Wellness For The Real World site. Enjoy, comment and discuss.
Ode To The Hypocrite
Summer of 1998, I exited a Target store with a guy I was seeing at the time. “Hey, come over here and talk to me,” a guy said standing with a group of friends. I looked over to see a group of five black males with sagging pants and backwards hats as they kept tormenting with their taunts. I immediately looked at my guy, a small-framed white guy from the suburbs who started to get angry. By the squint in his eye and the clinching of his fist, I could see that an altercation would ensue. “Just get in the car and don’t worry about it”, I said. I was the first black girl he had ever dated, but he was not my first white male. I had been here before. As we drove off, I discussed the rules of survival when interracially dating. Rule #1 being, Ignore and Move Forward.
Being a black women with an affectionate eye for melanin deficient males, I would like to say that I have done my part to fulfill Martin Luther King’s infamous dream. Most of my life I’ve been the victim of the curious stares and discriminatory statements that were directly related to my dating preference. Majority of the complaints of my interracial dating had come and continues to derive from black men, which one would initially assume. The kicker is that these are black men who openly date white women.
I have received stares of disgust from men while they are holding the hand of their white girlfriend. I don’t know where in the rhetorical Rules of Being Black it states, “black women stay single and wait for a black man, even if an amazing white man is interested in you. All the while, black men, do as you please.” Unfortunately, many black women feel this stigma and remain “True to our race”, finding themselves alone.
I remember sitting in my journalism class waiting for the teacher to arrive. The guy in front of me was a muslim named Jihad. He was a dreadlocked, black pride shirt wearing, black history enthusiast dedicated to teaching anyone and everyone around him about the wrong doings of white people. He would spout dates, names and judicial cases like they were his ABCs.
One day Jihad decided to turn around and tell me that he had been watching me around campus and that my dating white men was equivalent to me dating the devil. We debated throughout the semester until, finally, we agreed to disagree. He then showed me a picture of his beautiful nine-year old daughter who was biracial. I remember looking at him in utter confusion and then asked, “Why in the hell can you date outside of your race and I can’t?” His response, “Because it’s different.” This simplistic answer, from someone that always had so much to say, showed how ignorant a man could be. And as I grew older, he was not the only black man to stand strongly behind that statement. Of course without any clarification of what it actually meant.
As Americans, we have overcome a lot of historical barriers in regard to racism. The fact that blacks and whites can now be married is one of them. In the last forty years, the US Census has reported a steady increase in interracial marriage. Mostly Black male/White woman unions. So the last person I need to cause me grief in my quest for companionship is a hypocritical black male.
I urge black women, as well as any other woman, to open their options in finding a mate and not continue to be stuck in limbo waiting for a person of their same race. You may find yourself waiting a lifetime when your perfect match was right beside you the entire time. There are no rules to this life and if there were it should solely be; love and be loved, all else will fall into place.
Other people can actually learn a lot from this book because its a basic dating book. I want you to love one another, laugh, enjoy other people’s company whether or not they’re white of black. Stop being stuck in your little box! – Niki McElroy
Dear Niki,
Hi, I’m glad your site is up and running! Well to get started, I have always had a thing for white guys. I’m only 14 and dont date, but I’ve entered high school and want to start. My mom has always told me, ” Dont bring home a white boy!” Which really means: bring home only a black man. My sisters are just like my mom, strictly black guys. They dont know that I have a huge thing for white guys and thats because if i told them, I’d be the one that has to hear jokes about this and blah, blah, blah. How should I tell them? And as you see, the black guyness didnt rub off to me. Haha. My question is really how do I approach a white guy that I find attractive? Should I go personally or send a friend? My problem is that I just assume he wont like black girls and wont put my best foot forward. I like black guys, but something about white guys just hits the spot. I hope soon I’ll be able to get your book but of course without my family knowing! I just know for sure that I will end up with a white guy no matter what so having a little help wont hurt (:
Signed,
Leslie
Dear Leslie,
Let me start by saying that you sound like a very intelligent young lady and I am impressed with your letter. At 14, many people your age lack those basic writing and communication skills. Since I am talking to an educated young lady, I know you will take my words to heart and I hope that you do. I have only one thing to say… STAY AWAY FROM BOYS!!! WHITE BOYS, BLACK BOYS, PUERTO RICAN, CHINESE, WHATEVER!!! I imagine your mother and sisters may have told you that most boys are out for one thing and they’re right! Even if you find a boy whose not, the chances that the relationship will last through college is slim to none. Don’t waste your time!
Now because I was a 14 year old once upon a time, not extremely long ago, I remember being very stubborn and dating anyways. Not because I really wanted a boyfriend, but because it was “cool” to have one. Sweetie, DO NOT let the pressures of High School take away from the reason you are really there. You are there to learn. (Thinking to myself..Damn, I sound like an old lady!) But it’s the truth! Focus on your grades, get into a good college and find a man there that you know has a chance of being successful. You need a man, and the boys don’t transform into those mysterious creatures until about 35, so you better wait until then! Okay, I’m exaggerating, but in all seriousness, you don’t know whether he will drop out of high school and be a bum or become the next president. At least in college you’ll know what path they are on and because you’ll be on a great path and know who you are and what you want in life, you’ll hold a higher standard for yourself.
Dating is an emotional ride that someone your age isn’t quite ready to handle, especially with the school workload, extracurricular activities, hormone changes, popularity concerns and all those other fabulous things that high school brings. It’d be just one more thing to stress you out and divide your time.
Which gets me to your mother and her, “Don’t bring home a white boy” statement. Do you really think that your mother will have a problem with her successful daughter bringing home a successful man? I think not. How he treats you should be the ultimate prerequisite. Besides, I don’t know any black woman that will turn away their fabulous daughter when they know they will need their assistance when they become old and decrepit. We know not to bite the hand that will eventually feed us. Yes, you will deal with the jokes by your family, but they would do that if he were black with a silly haircut or a lisp, too. It’s family and that’s their job. As long as it’s not in front of your guy and he isn’t disrespected, they will end up getting over it. There are only so many times you can say the same joke before it’s just not funny anymore. Then you’ll find that their jokes will go from being “white” jokes to jokes about something else about him that has nothing to do with race.
Good luck in school and we’ll chat again in 4 years.
Niki McElroy










